Wisdumb: Stupid Sayings From Oprah To Osteen: Now with 12% fewer spelling and grammar errors!


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Supt. Harvey Burnett

I appreciate the dialogue. Blessings to you this weekend. Bishop Jones was just in San Antonio, Texas about two weeks ago trying to bridge the gap between oneness and trinitarian believers. Unfortunately he like many other oneness believers do not have a grasp on who God is. Even in Psalm 40 David phophesies a conversation between God and Jesus under the anointing of the spirit of God. This is one of many examples of a triune God head wherein the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit as one God eternally existent in three persons.

Brdavison, You said it right brother preacher. As I see it, there are 4 issues at stake: 1- Salvation- at what point and what is the method and process of salvation? Is there on GOd who exists eternally as three persons, or is it one God who manifests himself for three specific purposes or functions? There is a big differeence and that difference is not so hard to pull from scripture as some make it seem in my opinion. Does the bible teach a baptismal formula? As a sub to that linked to the sub in the first question a: If there is a formula does that formula provide some sort of regenerative effect spiritually or is it for identification?

Is it when faith is exercised or when they speak in tongues or are filled with the gift of the Holy Ghost? There may be some more issues, but most of the confusion centers around these. These are some of the issues I think, if we're going to try to bridge the gap need to be addressed in an open and forthright manner, not in some back closet or under a redefinition of terms.

Let's work with what we have and where we are now. Can you please quote and address Col , and is not majesty always referred to in 'third person' I just wonder if this is even worth the time because God is revealed, not discovered; It is based upon you delight in Truth!

Jesus declares this personification:I am the way, truth, n life I hear there are division among you As far as I can tell there is no Trinity there, at all. My type-o's and construction was so horrendous in the previous post I had to redo. I'm sorry: bad P. The verse that you reference states: Col.

Now, I won't deal with what you believe it means because I already know To answer your point The nature of God is revealed through scripture and can be apprehended if not comprehended. Listen to the Jones series Pt. The Colossians were dealing with an early form of Gnosticism. Since these were gentiles there was also an element of paganism that they were dealing with. In addition theyy were being confronted by the proselytizing of Judaizers which were Christ believing Jews who sought to turn these new Christians followers into adherants of the law.

There was a developed "philosophy" that stripped Jesus of his deity including his atoning death and physical resurrection. Paul called this the "philosophy" and "vain deceit of men". This verse was rendered to refute that thought that Jesus was not God. The "For in him" was the introduction to directly refute the heresy that had been raised in v.

The rest of the chapter deals with the whole issue of a real Christ who's death provided atonement for our sins, died and was raised by God v. It is simply an affirmation of the deity of Christ. It is confirmation that contrary to what these gnostics and heretics were teaching, that Jesus was God. The eternality of the Son is affirmed by assessing the complete volume of the NT, not one "magical" text or smoking gun. John 1 reveals that he "is" and is "with" displaying a duality of relationship of Jesus with the Father. Jesus prayed to whom? Not a manifestation nor an expression. Expression and manifestations do not answer prayer.

Mind, will, and intellect constitutes person-hood and comprises personality. A manifestation has neither and none of those things. So you feel it's a waste of time, it's never a waste of time to share the truth, it's only a waste of time to spread a lie. Now the real question is what do you interpret Colossians to mean. I would like to know that. I truly believe and know that they the sincere fruit bearers are saved and that they are believers. I have always been one to question things and prove them for my own understanding. Another discussion, LOL!

WHO was HE praying to? Come On! How delusional or schizophrenic would that be? It did not sit well with me. I heard another well-known pentecostal preacher, Bishop William L. Still did not sit well with me. I was a pretty much new convert to pentecostalism at the time, to , I was single and living in my own apartment. Being a Oneness Pentecostal or any other type of oneness believer must be a terrible flight of fanciful biblical interpretation And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? Manifestations don't talk to one another or exalt one another like this.

Now We all know that's God the Father of that there is no doubt, but if that's God teh Father, then who is this? Now who is this? If this is Jesus which we know that it is, whose hand is he taking the book out of while that one yet sits on the throne? If the one on the throne is not God then how is he worshipped by all heaven?

If the one who takes the book is not Jesus, then how is he worshipped and said to have been "slain" and is the "redeemer"? I tell you what, I can't comprehend how the Trinity works, but it is much easier to believe in the Trinity as it is clearly taught within scripture than some tremendous leap of speculative and subjective revelation that one has to implore to make the scriptures say something that they don't. I don't want that to misconstrued or misinterpreted. Enochwalked, That is a good observation. If God can see two people and call us one flesh in marriage Are we two manifestations?

Are we two revelatory expressions? No we are two people but yet one flesh. Now, in our case we don't share the same essence. There is one essence and nature with GOd yet he adequately describes himself and reveals himself within scripture as three persons each with mind, will, and intellect. Like you, I don't throw my Oneness brothers out of the kingdom. One might say, if it's not the Jesus of the bible.

There is some merit to that argument but i am not nor have I been convicted to do so Now, it doesn't work the other way around unfortunately. By the time they get finished preaching that everyone has to experience baptismal regeneration in a baptismal pool using the formula "in the name of Jesus" in order to be saved If you believe that the cross PLUS baptism makes you clean you're preaching another gospel. The gospel was of Jesus and his work on the cross, not what happened in a baptismal pool. Ceremonial washings and baptisms were straight out of the OT.

After the death of Jesus only ONE thing could make us clean and free from sin and that was repentant faith in Jesus and his atoning work on the cross. Ephesians says that the glorious church was cleansed "through the washing of the water by the word" that was the water referenced by John 3. Paul himself declares that he wasn't sent to baptize but to preach the gospel. So what do we do in acts when we see people receiving the Holy Ghost then being baptized?

Easy when we know the method of salvation. When we know that in each case those people were saved through repentant faith then we can easily see that baptism was for those individuals to be outwardly identified with Christ and his physical church. A literalistic and fundamental interpretation of the word instead of a contextual interpretation will mess one up along with the help of a few friends every time I recently finished a lengthy old series from John Ankerberg on this topic with Dr.

It can be found HERE The UPC's thought they were attacked but just count how many questions they asked without giving an answer or even justifying their position. Then what I noticed is that they took the arrangement of the Greek rather cavalierly and paid no attention at all to the Granville-Sharp rule of Greek interpretive rules when it came to Matt. One thing I find that I can better do is communicate the eternality of the son better.

When I say "eternal son" I make no distinction that Jesus is somehow subservient or an after thought of teh Father or GOd. I hold that they are One God, but yet two persons. There is a doctrine of the "eternal son" that holds that Jesus the son came into existence at some point after eternity. I certainly don't mean that at all. That sounds like Arianism to me. What a better phrase that I could use is "eternal Word". For many Son could take on a distinction of offspring or one that is "lower than" or a "shoot off from". Jesus is in no way a "shoot off" or offspring of God even though the term "only begotten of the Father" is used.

I believe this "only begotten" is further distinguished on the basis of how Jesus relates to US in this realm of existence. In Hebrews he says and "again when he bringeth the only begotten into the world" then he goes on to say "thy throne O God" indicated that we humanity recognize Jesus as the "only begotten", but GOd recognizes him as "God" with no distinction. So to communicate the concept scripturally we must be aware of what Jesus is not He is NOT lower than the Father. He is NOT a secondary thought or lower being. He is NOT a son in the sense of a man being the son of his Father.

The bible describes him as the one who was born unto Mary Mt. But also GOd and of course that would make him eternal. So we identify Jesus as 'son' as it relates to the order of GOd. GOd says this is my "beloved son", but we see him as God as it pertains to his nature and essence.

Again he is further distingushed as a "person" based on all the attributes I mentioned earlier and cannot be a mere, "manifestation", "revelation", or "revelatory expression" although Jesus's function is to reveal and makes manifest God and his plan of salvation to the world. Patterson and Bishop C. Mason under the "Jesus name" baptismal formula. Best sources I was able to find say that the rebaptism of Bishop Mason didn't occur. Bishop Hancock and Bishop Mason were good friends and remained friends throughout their lives. He wanted to, of course, get the brethern to accept Oneness and the baptismal formula.

Bishop Mason then proceeded to blast him scripturally in front of the Saints in Memphis and he received no support. Bishop Mason also left a solid trail of preaching and works have been documented where he staunchly was against both the baptismal formula and Oneness theology in general. There are some works out of print that yet circulate that speak to this issue in Mason's own words. I know of one particular part of a message myself that I will deliver later. Some have also informed me that IF such an event occured Bishop Hancock would have also been required to get rebaptized in the trinitarian formula.

They say Bishop Mason was one to do this sort of thing So that was in his character but noone can place where he would have even intimated to come to Hancock for a baptism at all. Secondly, Bishop G. Patterson spoke strongly and staunchly against oneness doctrine and the "Jesus name" baptismal formula. The evidence for him lies in his vast amount of videos, in which he denounced both elements as scriptural error and heresy. Those videos are available for all to see today and there are many in which he deals with what he called the "scriptural error" of the Oneness teaching.

He maintained that up until death so I don't see whether there was any softening in his position as was suggested. The question more specifically was whether he was rebaptized when he left COGIC for about a 13 year period of time. Once again there is no substantiation or confirmation available of that through members that were there both before, during and after his return.

Patterson taught or affirmed either Oneness doctrine on the nature of God or "Jesus name" only baptism. Now, I didn't think that was the case as I kept up with Bishop G. There appears to be an overwhelming amount of documentation from him on the issue not to mention that he preached such and set the modern pentecostalism record straight even during a PAW national meeting to which he was invited to speak. Many PAW members didn't know the history as he laid out and he preached against the error at that time.

From what I also understand and am told, Bishop Patterson was also instrumental to opening the dialogue that exists at this time between Pentecostal oneness and trinitarian believers. Bishop Mason told a story of an lover that went like this: A married brother in the church had a girlfriend in the church.

She sat in the front and he in the back. To get a message to her he would drop a note on the floor when he came up to place his offering in the tray. One day his wife noticed that he dropped a note and retrieved it before his girlfriend could get to it.


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It had instructions on where and what time to meet him that evening. He left according to the time on the note and immediately his wife got dressed, put on some makeup, new perfume and a wig and arrived at the appointed place. It was very dim and when the man perceived the woman was his church girlfriend he grabbed her and began to grope and kiss her. After a while, his wife responded, "Is it better in the dark, than it is in the light? His statement: "We already knew that Jesus was God, you didn't have to go off and establish another church to preach that.

That was nothing new. Beloved Pastor, Once again a thought provoking blog, we know that we becomes sons' of God when we accept Christ and upon that receive the Holy Spirit. We know that the Master didn't become the Son, because he always was the Son the term begotten. We see God say, let US make man in our own image and likeness. Jesus name alone means, "God is salvation or Yahweh saves. Even the hebrew word "Elohim" means plural because of the last 2 ltrs "im. For they knew in calling himself the Son of God, he was initially calling himself God. No matter how you agree or disagree with Bishop Jones, the important thing is that you know God's Word for yourself.

But it is also our responsibility to know God's word for yourselves. This is why in Hosea , it is says "my people are destroyed from lack of knowledge This is ridiculous! Know your Word. If you truly desire to know what oneness really means, then do a personal Bible Study. I have been Pentecostal, aka Apostolic my entire life and this has always been a dispute.

But the point is, I hold all of those positions and I am one person. This title is "Man Made". His Word makes it plain This isnt just about Bishop Jones or any other leader, this is about salvation! Miracles, Blessings to you all! Matthew April, Thanks for your commentary and I won't go point by point with you because you are entitled to your opinion on the issue and your opinion and insight is valuable. I will make 2 notes however: 1- My views in retort are certainly much more than "personal opinions and bashing" If you can't identify the word that provides a solid foundation for my commentary, then I can't do any more to illuminate you than I've already done on this blog in the few podcasts as well as other posts specifically outling the arguments.

John destroys your premise since we should study the WORD to understand it In that verse Jesus describes himself as having a "will" and submitting that will to the Father. In fact he says that his "meat" aka: will is to do the "will" of the Father and to finish his work. This is what is called a distinction based on will. You as an "auntie" DO NOT have a different will than you as a "daughter" to say so is a ridiculous notion.


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  5. However Jesus makes the distinction. Further,Jesus prays to the Father. You don't ask yourself as auntie anything do you? When you are auntie, speak to your daughter you as say Nonetheless, this is the relationship between teh Father and son as outlined in scripture. Once again, this is a distinction as confirmed all the way through teh WORD of God that you miss in reading the scripture for whatever reason. So there are is solid and sound biblical support for my opinion and what I conclude in this article.

    So thanks and I appreciate your comments, but stay around you may add a new dimension to your current biblical understanding. Burnett My apologies I forgot all about this post. But you presented a great deal of sound doctrine teaching that is so necessary in refuting the lies of men and the doctrine of demons. I will be using this info to refute the oneness error in the future. Keep Preaching the truth sir!

    In response to JN Anderson: Read the bible without your pre-conceived erroneous oneness " man-ology " that you have and you will have your answer. The application of language has changed and when you were talking about the "express image" that is exactly how many Apostolic brethern describe Jesus. That if he himself is the father he can be no more than the image of God in Jesus Whereas the original language of the text indicated that Jesus IS God, but there is an ontologocial distinction made, not soelely based on role as is often taught, but based on person, mind, will and intellect.

    So from a scriptural standpoint the "express image" would have to indicate more than a mere reflection of God. It would have to indicate that the person of Jesus is God! This is a distinction that Apostolic doctrine does not make In those instances God must somehow leave Jesus the son to do something as the Father???

    This misses everything that scripture teaches about the nature of the Father and Son. I don't care how it's dressed up, at the end of the day the Apostolic believer, has an issue and a big problem addressing how the Father can speak from heaven, the son stand on the shore and the Holy Ghost descend like a dove at the same time and in the same epoch and they say something like he is the Father in creation, the Son in redemption and the Holy Ghost in the church That is a unscriptural ascription no matter how one's tries to shake it. Elder Jeffrey, Thanks for the Facebook contact also You asked a few things one making the observation that under the trinitarian concept that there were three God's no matter how we look at it First there's nothing further from the truth and I address this in the article.

    Fact is that both of us agree that there is only ONE God and that he is incomprehensible. He is beyond our understanding. With that said, how can we rationalize to fully be able to know or understand his nature? What we do know is how he describes himself within scripture and how he interacts. Now, who left where to do this all at the same time???

    No, there is a distinction based on relationship not merely based on role as oneness pentecostals claim. Once again, there is a distinction and will or mind of the Spirit also and we see that the Spirit also has a relationship with the Father and Son as being "sent" by the Father, "sent" by the Son and coming to "glorify" Jesus. In addition that Spirit can be lied to as Peter says in Acts 5. There is a distinction based on being, but not based on essence.

    One God is clear. This is clear throught the gospels, Acts and described within the epistles. So ONE God eternally exists in 3 duistinct persons who have will, mind, intellect and relationship of one another. If God were God as he says that he is, why would we think that we could fully comprehend his nature? He is NOT a man We can apprehend HIS truth based on his description of himself. OK, you say there is no such word as "trinity" therefore its not biblical That is NOT even an argument. There is no such word as "incarnation" but we know that God put on flesh and dwelt among men do we not?

    That is incarnation. So there is no requirement for a word to be found in the bible before it is considered to be a biblical concept. This is exactly what we would expect if it were true. Then you ask another question but the distinction is in your own writing Jesus never said he IS the Father He sadi that teh Father was IN Him What I see is a problem with the understanding of the hypostatic union in oneness circles.

    God doesn't die, but yet Jesus humanity does. And he fulfills scripture by reciting, "my God, my GOd why hast thou forsaken me? By the way This is Symbolism or a vision etc. God humbled himself coming in flesh. When Jesus was on earth the deity did not always over shadow his humanity-he went to sleep etc. What this is is a lack of understanding and a minimization of the scripture. So sorry In addition, at times Jesus veiled his Godship. He never ceased to being God. He only veiled it at times. So whatever limitations that he displayed were voluntary aspects of his nature where he intentionally veiled himself, not where GOd left him and he was just a man Like the Pharisee we all spend to much time in Debate of the way we see religious things, instead of Loving God with all , and your neighbor as yourself.

    That is much more important than the biblical semantics of hermeneutical exegesis and denominational divide about interpretation of certain Scripture Bro! All what our tiny minds could ever concieve is but a spec of who GOD really is. Revelation, knowledges and the like will pass away. Christlover, Your commentary if it were over some practice such as wearing a hat or not wearing a hat or a dark suit or something to that matter would be understood as harmless and loving sentiment and encouragement to find common ground and move forward.

    Unfortunately, your commentary displays a total lack of understanding for the importance of the subject, the gospel, the essentials of the faith and ultimately what people gave their life for by way of martyrdom and what we are encouraged by Jude to "earnestly contend" for This is NOT an argument of semantics as you put it. This is an argument of quintessential importance. So this is an issue of great importance and one that cannot simply be sloughed over in language or claiming that language is the prohibitor from understanding or that an understanding hasn't been given.

    The revelation of God through his word is not hidden from those that humble themselves to that revelation. The Son, IS the Son eternally, not just when a hat comes on for him to work within the church. We see him ion the OT described and acting in many ways. So your commentary lacks depth and I feel that a careful and succinct review of information on the subject on your behalf is in order. To wit we all agree to love him is to obey him, but to love him is to acquiesce to how he has revealed himself within his word and teach that to the highest degree at all costs, because only that truth will stand and only that truth will change the hearts of men and mankind.

    A counterfeit won't do! Waste of Time overall. This is a nat in the total walk with the one True Undivided God. The weightier things are Love and Peace with all men. Not flesh fighting over Dogma. I've heard BOTH sides of this argument for YEARS, both sides waste time accusing the other side of blatant misinterpretation of obvious scriptures and truth blah blah blah. Serve Christ. Contending for the Faith is about Proclaiming Christ as messiah in contexts bro.

    And u know it. Cease dogma debate. It grieves me to see us fight other Christians in the name of the so called Faith we Divide. Many men like yourself have come and gone and the two more similar than not Views remain. Christlover, FIRST, you didn't call me so you have no idea what is a "waste of my time" nor do you know what God has called me to do Obviously not Since YOU are not God then, you can only respond to the subject matter and not to those who espouse views of scripture and doctrine if it is not that YOU are "wasting time" Now which Christ are you referring to?

    The Christ that did not exist as Jesus until he was born of a woman, or the Christ that was preexistent with God John. Which Christ is it, the one that wears three hats, moves in three modes or roles or the one that has a distinct will from the Father, has a spacial awareness of the location and identity of the Father and a mind and will that he subjects to the Father's and prays to? It;s not about you trying to slip in your "semantic lie" argument to minimize the importance of the issue now is it If you can't believe the scripture for who Jesus is as it is laid out within scripture, then why should ANYONE listen to you and how do you feel that you are representing the Jesus of the bible???

    To persist is a subjective fantasy of mind, not the objective truth of God's word by which we are all constrained. So your opinion on the issue is good, but if you don't want to address issues, your commentary should be confined to the material at hand, not trying to be an overseer of my work or mission.

    As you can see the subject yields plenty to discuss and plenty to which you should give heed from your prior comments. All parts of the word of God is important and demands our attention We can't simply kick the parts we don't like or what we can't understand and call it "dogma" as if it has no essential importance The early church would slap all these charlatans in the face two times over for that type of childish application of scripture They DIED for this belief and they articulated what they believed and stood for it This modern church is so bogged down in itself and hi-fivin' for what it "thinks" about the word, until it doesn't even know the word!

    The WORD is far from it Be honest, at least admit that the understanding of modalism was not biblical and was rejected early on. Claim it as a progression taught again in the early 's but don't try to hijack the faith with some erroneous understanding and claim it's only a "semantic" That's called a deceit and a LIE!

    God is NOT the Father or author of either of those! I will say this and move on, since I perceive this is your spiritual aim in life. JOHN And John answered and said , Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us. You were raised to be dogmatic by your Leaders so you continue in their footsteps.

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    What arrogance and Pride I sense. It seems you Always want to make the path of Christ love about strife and debate within the body, Your own emotions make this the big issue of the world with all it's sin and trouble. Im trying to help really Im glad I dont live under that bondage anymore. If someone doesnt agree with me or you doesnt mean they are not Saved man. S Business in the end, not mine This is a waste of time for me.

    I just so happen to pass this site looking for something else. But I'm sure this is more important To You right now. Christ"embarrasser", Thanks for wasting ALL of our time with such ineffective arguments With all that LOVE, you have it simply seethes through your commentary as you have not ceased insults and arrogance since you've commented Listen, thanks for leaving, but dialogue with real people will be much better for you IF you stick to your opinions on the SUBJECT and not revert to personal rants and ad homonym's as you do So far as what Jesus preached So thanks for nothing because you haven't addressed any issues and what you have asserted so far doesn't hold up to scrutiny You don't have to address the issues raised, but I don't have to field your commentary either I have never read so much supidity on the subject of One God and the Trinity in my life.

    God himself says that he is One and created by Himself. I am not going to quote scriptures you all claim to ministers of God. It is amazing how mankind beleives what others say about God more than what God say's about Himself. Shame on all of you. Brother King, T. What a was of time an so-called intellect. God says that He is One and created alone and by himself. All the books, councils and man made doctrines in the world want change that.

    I don't know that seems like it may be a pretty challenging proposition No need to quote scriptures like an out of control geiser, just deal with the arguments as established, that's how one communicates. There is no argument, again God is One. Do you geniuses really think God needs you to count for Him, or defend Him?

    I agree yea, read! I'd like to have your general summary of what these passages mean and why they are there. Fight for the faith, not a faith nor a doctrine invented by man. The gospel does not need Bishop Jone's, Jakes' or any otlher man's approval. The word was with God, the word was God, not a god or the second god person in the Trinity. Who was given authority over the Apostles and God to determine this so-called basic foundation for belief. Maybe it's for Christians who got their name from people but not for Sons who are called so by God. Thug King, Now it's easy to say anything, but communication is not about saying things, it's about saying things that people understand.

    It's not communication when I pour my reference into what you are saying because you could be saying something different that what I understand. For example, If I go to an airport and say Hi-Jack real loud, what will probably happen? Some people, including security will probably arrest me But Jack, with whom, I'm speaking will wonder what's going on.

    I will have to clarify what my meaning, intent and understanding is and based on that, I can either be set free or further inconvenienced. What does that mean and what are trying to communicate?

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    The JW's, Mormons and many Christians state the exact same thing, but they all and each believe differently. What does it mean to have One God and One Lord? Are they one in the same or two different entities? How does that work and why the double statement if God is truly one?

    I didn't say that Paul said it in 1 Cor. What others believe is irrelevant, as we know the devil believes in one God and trembles. God was manifested in the flesh. The Word became flesh and dwelt among us. The Word was God not a God or a member of deity what is translated godhead. The son came in the fulness of TIME, made of a women, made under the law. You don't have to understand everything. Thug King, That's what I mean, I know what Paul says and what he means from his writings, but I don't know what you mean You said that: The Word was God not a God or a member of deity what is translated godhead.

    That indicated a duel relationship doesn't it? That's not a detail to leave out is it? So what does your statement mean? Noone here including those who believe in the trinity believe in three God's or membership status amongst Gods? So expound on that please, what prompts you to say it? You also said that Jesus was "made of a women, made under the law.

    The other's who you believe it doesn't matter believe that Jesus was "made" or created at some point in time. I say that to say, it DOES matter what we communicate. You said: You don't have to understand everything. Agreed, noone does, but we can know what God has given us to know and all aspects of himself are important.

    Is there something about God that we don't need to know that he has revealed? As far as made, born it's a matter of translations. He had a definite beginning, that is, the son. Ok, thought maybe if you could see a trinity you could use that reasoning to understand that "with" does not have to imply a spacial relationship. My word is with me and withou my word being expressed as in this communication, no one would know me. Therefore, I and my word are one in the same.

    Without my word I am lump of clay. Even those who cannot speak or hear have to use "word" language to express thought. Question, what do you mean no one here including those that believe in the trinity? What is here and what do you believe. I see schism and devouring, apostle Paul and James, ref.

    To all bloggers, oneness, trinitarians or whatever, stop trying to re-invent the nature of God. Stick to the scriptures, avoid being puffed up. There is one God the Father who manisfest Himself in and through creation and most recently by his Son. Labels and doctrine and books and big names nor long titles neither Greek or Hebrew will help you see, Luke You said: "As far as made, born it's a matter of translations.

    Read John I see no reference to Jesus being created at any point in time. I see him putting on the the limitation of flesh, but I don't see a "created" Jesus. Would that be accurate? Then you said: "you could use that reasoning to understand that "with" does not have to imply a spacial relationship. Excellent reasoning, BUT context details what "with" suggests would it not?

    Your words are "with" you as you state, but neither do your words "put on flesh and dwell among men" There is a VAST contextual difference. What we see within scripture is that the WORD "becomes" flesh and "dwells" among us and feels, displays compassion and has a mind or will Jn. So the word "with" in context is a spacial term used in this instance to indicate duality as opposed to a mere social relationship as you explain. This is the evidence contained within the scripture. So your assertion does not fit what we see and find within scripture itself. In the WORD of God that's why I and we take time to meticulously examine it and lay out what it says in concise fashion.

    You said: "I see schism and devouring, apostle Paul and James, ref. Personally, I see [people developing in their understanding like you and some that haven't developed a biblically inspired view of their position similar to you. Schism come in when unfounded and unsupportable assertions are rendered as biblical fact.

    You said: "There is one God the Father who mansifest Himself in and through creation and most recently by his Son. God manifesting himself through creation is called cosmology. You said: "Labels and doctrine and books and big names nor long titles neither Greek or Hebrew will help you see, Luke Amen" What you describe is fatalism of ignorance and that's nowhere taught within scripture as it pertains to God, his word or his ways In fact God said that ignorance is part of the reason we perish.

    Hosea His ways can be perceived, though they are "past finding out" Rom. God has promised to dispel our ignorance if we seek him Mt. Must one have a scholarly degree? But one can seek and find without a degree and much study is not a mark of weakness, it is a mark of strength especially when one is making truth claims and handling souls which have an eternal destiny. One more thing A title or a name for what you believe is not a mark of division, it's simple wisdom.

    As expected, you are still saying a lot but at the same time saying nothing. It's amazing how intellect continues to confound the "wise" thank God for using the foolish things. Your labels cosmology, theophany, trinity and the rest weren't revealed to you, they were past on to you. I am sure you sound impressive to those unlearned in the Word of God, but they neither add to take away from me.

    Once they called Peter and the others ignorant and unlearned. But it didn't stop the truth. Hide, you were joking, right? There is again according to scripture rightly divided, one God. Explain it to your followers however you see for He is one. Oh, every thing you see manifested began as a "logos" in someone's mind. THUG King, Aside from the fact that your ramblings have become unintelligible and very self-exalted as if to say, "i am the one really true to the bible, while you people aren't" displaying the cultism that usually comes along with the oneness Pentecostalism that you espouse Explain this How did the WORD come to earth?

    We know ,born of a woman, but how is that process described? You keep trying to label me and put me in some group for your convenience. It's wonderful how that church history has shown that controlling entity has a system for established false doctrine based on philosophy and just plan whimsical fantasy and then call everyone else cults our heretics.

    You sound ready to start another inquisition. A cult is any religious sect or system, excuse me, I am a member of neither. Can you honestly say the same. Titus , A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject. However the Word became flesh it did and I thank God that when I stand before Him I won't have to give account for believing what others said or wrote about Him over what He inspired His prophets and apostles to write. It was nice interacting with you, and should I meet there, know this, "I ain't mad at ya".

    YOU are the one who makes certain claims stating that nobody but YOU are faithful to scripture and scriptural methods. Those are claims that can be challenged. If you don;t want statements challenged, or examined, then simply keep them to yourself. There are two things that you imply and neither makes sense: 1- that the only language that is to be used is biblical language when it comes to describing what we observe within scripture.

    That attitude is NOT scripture itself. Paul used the words of Greek philosophers at Mars hill to describe God and gain an opportunity to preach. None of those words were found in the Torah, but they were yet used him to describe and preach the glory of Christ.

    Though each individual is a "temple" of God you say that you belong to nothing in the natural realm, but you are a one man island. However that violates the scriptural command of "assembling together" Heb. You may say you "assemble" with them but are not a part and that begs the question. So in your effort to prove how faithful you are to scripture, you actually violate it by not being an accountable part of a body of believers. So some advice, seeing that you have pointed to no scripture that either justifies your position and cannot adequately explain your position and do not want your statements examined in the light of day, then please keep them to yourself.

    Some of us enjoy indepth study which challenges our positions rather than a waste of time from persons trying to assert that noone's right but them. I believe that you may be willing to believe in that even though the word is never once found in the bible. If not, you'd do better to keep that to yourself also because that would really be sad. Never said no one knows the truth but me, and don't know how you came to that and many other conclusions.

    Know this however, I know all your words to describe your position, been there studied that. Again, not that it really matters, I am not affiliated with any oneness organization but I am a member of the body of Christ. Maybe the use of brother King cause you to think that I am in some organization. Regardless, Paul used the language he was inspired to use and frankly I don't need to add to or take away from that for the sake of some so-called deep study or conversation.

    It is a small thing if I be examined by you, actually it's refreshing. THUG King, You said Never said no one knows the truth but me, and don't know how you came to that and many other conclusions. Maybe it's because you started off the conversation with utter arrogance such as this: I have never read so much supidity on the subject of One God and the Trinity in my life. That would strongly suggest that YOU are the only one that knows truth and right because posters on both sides of the issue have posted here and I have taken the time to be as clear and concise on my position so that a child wouldn't error, but to you, it;s all "stupidity".

    Now, I understand that it may be because you are young and inexperienced because you draw conclusions and make assertions like a young person would do. Although I don't hold it against you, let me just give you an example of what I mean. OK, let me get this straight. It would have to be if you are the "pastor and teacher" of it and it is not YOU, or your person as an entity. More importantly, I think you intend well, but that's what I'm for in this capacity, to help folks intents match their presentation when possible, I suppose. You said: "Regardless, Paul used the language he was inspired to use and frankly I don't need to add to or take away from that for the sake of some so-called deep study or conversation.

    I want you to remember that you also said this: Labels and doctrine and books and big names nor long titles neither Greek or Hebrew will help you see, Luke Amen Now there may be two confusions here. The first may be that you "think" that what you are reading in either the KJV or whatever version of the bible you read, are the words and language of Paul. That was the language of scripture. One doesn't have to be a linguist by any means, but to say what you said, that the study of the original languages, which includes context, intent and mood, is insignificant, makes all those who would listen to you RIPE for deception and confusion.

    See pt. But it's hard to tell from your assessment and the information that you've delivered in this forum. Souls deserve better and they deserve for you to be better. No, I am not young and have been serving God in this capacity for over 20 years. No let the name prime your mind. I began this ministry to counter the recent glorification of the thug life. Now the majority of the youth I began with have college degrees, nursing and medical professions, married and raising families.

    Others have decent jobs and one his own business. Glory to God. I still stand by my original post and everything that followed. You can be incorporated and a c 3, with being and organization. I admire your brightness even though misled. OK, Mr. Thanks for stopping. Thank you for this teaching on oneness. I grew up in Michigan and had a mother who was and is a staunch, oneness, card carrying member of the PAW.

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    Growing up I was confused because oneness didn't make sense. After high school I left the state and became a christian in a non-denominational church that teaches the trinity. Finally it was all clear, I got it, it made sense. Of course to this day my mother does not believe I can make it to heaven unless I get re-baptized in Jesus Name.

    Despite the fact that I gave my life to Christ in the 90's, am filled with the Spirit and love the Lord with all my heart. Growing up Apostolic, I had a very hard time even understanding Jesus or the bible because I could not understand "Jesus only" Being a nurse, I think medically, I compare the oneness Jesus to someone with schizophrenic tendencies please no one take offense I have the utmost reverence for the Lord.

    Their description of Jesus was someone who went around talking to himself about himself, hearing voices and constantly referring to someone who did not exist, HUH?? I always questioned who was this Father who said audibly this is my son in whom I am well pleased? Or in John when Jesus said "I" will depart and send "Him" the comforter to you, how could he be talking about himself when He said He was leaving. Can you be a true worshiper of God if you are believing the lie of oneness? Are you worshiping the true God of the bible if you believe in oneness?

    I pray that God will open the eyes of the ones believing this false doctrine. I honestly can't even understand how anyone believes oneness. It's like trying to push a square peg through a round hole it just doesn't fit. WarriorForChrist, Thank you for adding your thoughts and you are on point as far as I see it when examining scripture.

    What I see as the problem is that the Oneness folk think that God somehow left the human Jesus to do God acts. For example, I've heard many of them say that when God spoke from heaven he was talking to the "human portion" of Jesus on the shore Puzzling I know, because when you explain that NO ONE is worshiped in heaven or on earth but God and that BOTH he that sat on the throne AND he that took the book from the one that sat upon the throne were worshiped, they then reduce the whole scene to a vision, like a dream I mean the avoidance is VERY fanciful.

    He, Jesus, has a will and the Father has a will. The Holy Spirit, has a mind which constitutes will. GOd IS NOT schizo and they they describe him and such and claim that there is some sort of separation between the God Jesus and the human Jesus destroy scripture in the process Yes, it is a mystery District Supt.

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